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Unread 02-17-2010, 10:56 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by inpuressa View Post
Hate to admit it, but I can match the lap times of my 416 with my Tb03. Well, the body has a lot to do with it though. But the 416 feels it has more potential, but I'm not that good to make use of it.
Could it just be the setup? In "theory", given the same driving skills, you "should" be faster with the 416.
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Unread 02-17-2010, 11:38 PM   #52
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Just looking at Paul's fastest and slowest laps says it all. Paul is one of the best drivers at RWH. If it matters, he's driving a TOP Photon.

As for Inpuressa, it could be due to alot of things. Could be setup, could be drivetrain efficiency(TB03 is shaft drive), could be chassis flex, etc.. I believe it's because Kejii had more time with the TB-03 giving him more time to develope the setup and get more comfortable with the car.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 07:11 AM   #53
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One of TB-03s biggest advantage is the IFS system that allows you to put low front end bodies. The Super GT bodies are really low compared to your regulated TC wedge bodies. The low CG gives the car a different feel and more stability. I tested the car with the Tekin205 13.5, and it felt like it was pretty much at its capabilities, where as the 416 felt like it can handle more. The 416 does have more steering, and I could probably get a faster time if I made the car loose. But I don't have the skills to consistently drive a loose car like Rheinard or Groskamp. The key is to be able to make instantaneous minute adjustments to your steering angle to keep the car just at the breaking point of the rear tires. How hard is that

The TB-03 imo, is a very formidable car for a tub chassis.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 08:54 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by inpuressa View Post
How hard is that
Practice. Practice. Practice.

Only joking! Thanks for the explanation.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 09:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by FREAKAH View Post
Just looking at Paul's fastest and slowest laps says it all. Paul is one of the best drivers at RWH. If it matters, he's driving a TOP Photon.
Paul's times are good enough to compete on the mainland in the big races.

I've been doing some research on the Photon ever since InspGadgt mentioned it. It's an interesting ride. I need to spend some time comparing it to the other cars to figure out what makes it unique.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 10:14 AM   #56
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Most of the mainstream highend TCs are basically the same. They just add subtle changes to avoid Copyright issues lol. The other determining factor is the long term cost involved like parts availability. The photon is popular because BC can bring the parts in at a good price. I run Tamiya because I am a fanboi hahaha. In all, performance is pretty much on par with each other. After that is your personal preference and driver skill.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 10:48 AM   #57
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The cost really sets the Photon apart from the pack...it is much less expensive than other TCs out there. But also it has some interesting design concepts that apparently make it work well. The multi-part top deck makes it flex differently than other TCs.

The 3Racing looks like it is going to be competitive in price with the Photon and has some other unique design features that may set it apart as well. Using rollers in the diff instead of diff balls is quite interesting to me as it will need considerably less pressure to maintain the same amount of friction needed so the diff will not slip. Not to mention never having to worry about flat spotted diff balls and grooved diff rings.

I really wish more manufacturers would go to the rear body mount brace idea like my Phi has. It's really nice to not have to worry about getting specific body posts every time they need replacing. With the Phi I can just buy any ol generic style body post.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 12:17 PM   #58
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I'll have some comments on the Photon later. I'm still reading...

I don't know about 3Racing. In the nitro world, we would always advise people not to buy anything from 3Racing that spins. Their non-spinning hop-ups were (are) good though.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 12:49 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
I'll have some comments on the Photon later. I'm still reading...

I don't know about 3Racing. In the nitro world, we would always advise people not to buy anything from 3Racing that spins. Their non-spinning hop-ups were (are) good though.
In the meantime bring out that 007 on Sunday and race. It's all good, win or lose, or just hang out and have fun. That's what it's all about.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 12:56 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
I'll have some comments on the Photon later. I'm still reading...

I don't know about 3Racing. In the nitro world, we would always advise people not to buy anything from 3Racing that spins. Their non-spinning hop-ups were (are) good though.
They definately do have issues with certain things...the heatsink fans for motors were always a problem for 3Racing...but all of their F201 parts were top notch. Manufacturing they are quality...just sometimes they miss something in the design.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 03:29 PM   #61
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In the meantime bring out that 007 on Sunday and race. It's all good, win or lose, or just hang out and have fun. That's what it's all about.
No can. I got family stuff that is going to take up most of the day on Sunday.

The car isn't ready anyway. I made some really unfortunate uninformed decisions when I started in nitro and I'm definitely not making the same mistake with electric. I would rather take my time and figure things out than just rush into things like I did the last time.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 03:39 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
My used 08 Phi is running great...that said if looking for a new car right now I'd be looking at the Photon. That car just has so much grip right out of the box it is surprising.
My impression is that the Photon is for more experienced racers that know how to identify and sort out issues associated with a new electric car. This includes build issues, unexpected wear and breakage, and dealing with some of the short comings of the car that surface after running it a few times. If you know what you're doing, then these things shouldn't be an issue or something that you can't deal with. For a new person, some things could be a real problem if you don't have an expert in your back pocket to help you figure out what's wrong with your car – and that's if you even realize that something is wrong with your car. Also knowing how to prevent something from happening again can be a challenge for some.

I'm surprised that TOP didn't provide a servo saver with the car. I have a pretty good idea of why this happened, but one would think that TOP would just have provided one with the car – or at least supplied one shortly after people started having issues.

Using cone diff washers is an interesting concept. Do other cars have them?

I don't have much to say about the chassis wing tuning option. It's nice that there are two options for each type of tire and that you don't have to buy an entire top deck.

Owners of the car that post at RCTech seem generally happy with the car. Some are having more issues than others, but that is to be expected. There is great support from the team drivers and other racers in the RCTech forum. TOP seems responsive to certain confirmed issues and it's good to see that they've sent out replacement parts (i.e. drive cups).

Peformance wise, it's a proven winner, so that's definitely not an issue, but the impression I get is there are other areas that TOP could improve upon to make the car better.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 03:48 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
No can. I got family stuff that is going to take up most of the day on Sunday.

The car isn't ready anyway. I made some really unfortunate uninformed decisions when I started in nitro and I'm definitely not making the same mistake with electric. I would rather take my time and figure things out than just rush into things like I did the last time.
What are you still contemplating on? If you are gonna run BL setups, TP 5000mah 40c, DUO2/tekin redline/ballistic, Tekin RS, and some sorex 36R will get you up to par with anybody here. The good thing about Tekin is that you can roll back if needed. You can start by buying cheaper stuff, but you will eventually end up with those things if you stick around long enough. That is one pitfall of RC, let alone any hobby.

For 540 class, all you really need is a decent lipo and sorex tires.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 05:53 PM   #64
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Any of the race quality TC chassis is going to have the same or similar build issues to people unfamiliar with building a race RC. BC's Photon built straight out of the box per instructions worked very well. Fortunately we have a TOP sponsored driver that can help with the car if need be. But more than that several good drivers that are well versed enough in setup to help out no matter what chassis you start with. Bring the 007 on out when you can...it should do just fine.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 06:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by inpuressa View Post
What are you still contemplating on? If you are gonna run BL setups, TP 5000mah 40c, DUO2/tekin redline/ballistic, Tekin RS, and some sorex 36R will get you up to par with anybody here. The good thing about Tekin is that you can roll back if needed. You can start by buying cheaper stuff, but you will eventually end up with those things if you stick around long enough. That is one pitfall of RC, let alone any hobby.

For 540 class, all you really need is a decent lipo and sorex tires.
I gotta make things complicated. I can't just go shopping, show up at the track and then figure things out. Not this time. That doesn't work for me. For example...

I recently found out that some people are having issues with Novak BL motors and Tekin ESCs. Something about the motor timing being "different" from other BL motors and so you have to factor that into your total timing. Some guys also claim to be cogging - whatever that means. So that combination may not be a good idea. Some people say it's all good. Some people have issues. What's the real story?

And then, what is the difference in performance between the pre-mounted SJ-R 36R's and the Speedmind 36'R other than one is dish and the other one is spokes? I know that the dish doesn't flex as much as the spokes, but what is better on asphalt? I also seen these 62.5x30mm rubber tires and wonder how those would work.

Is a 116 spur gear the right size gear to use with a 17.5 motor? I don't know. Somebody was saying it's a better combination for more low end punch, but didn't say what motor that was for.

How does tightening or loosing a diff affect corner entry, mid and exit? I know I copy/pasted something into my notes, but I haven't committed it to memory yet so I don't know.

Am I going to put the LiPo battery further out from the center to balance the car or am I going to shave the bottom of the battery case, put a notch by the rear bulkhead and squeeze it under the top deck? '007 is not LiPo friendly. And if I do put the battery further out, am I going to use a weighted LiPo tray or use individual weights in the battery slots and use something else to extend out the battery? At present, I'm leaning towards individual weights to allow more flex.

I have to think about what springs to buy. XRAY springs are not cheap and when it comes down to it, you don't need the whole lower weight spring set for rubber tires. I have to look at some setup sheets.

The car I bought didn't come with any extra parts at all. Only the car and what's on it. I have no idea what degree hubs are on the car, I don't know how the roll center pins are positioned and I have no shims to adjust the setup - so I have to figure out what I need.

So these are the types of things I'm contemplating.

Maybe this stuff is easy for you and you know the answers to all these questions, but I'm still stupid when it comes to this stuff. As much as possible, I want to understanding what I'm doing so when someone gives me some advice, I have a clue as to what they are talking about and not just blindly doing something because somebody said so.

Last edited by rmdhawaii; 02-18-2010 at 07:01 PM.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 07:02 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
I gotta make things complicated. I can't just go shopping, show up at the track and then figure things out. Not this time. That doesn't work for me.
Looks to me that you're over analyzing everything. What works for one person might not work for you. You can get suggestions and buy the fastest equipment but the only thing that matters is if you can drive consistently.

You said you are stupid at this stuff, wanna get better? Come out and race, I bet everyone out there will educate you on what you really need. All this on-line/bench racing wont improve your driving/learning of electrics.

Inpuressa gave you a solid list of what to start out with. It's what the fast guys are running.

I'd go out and run my car on the track first, then go buy what I need. Who knows, maybe your car is already dialed!

Bottom line is to have fun! They're just toys
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Unread 02-18-2010, 07:28 PM   #67
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I have some extra springs you can try, I'm sure others do as well to help you figure out what springs you'll need to buy. I've got the softest ones I can on the car now to get enough grip with my car. As for the size spur gear...I've heard that this sized gear or that sized gear is better for this or that for years now. Typically it's bupkus...what matters most is the gear ratio not the size of the gear. The biggest benefit a larger gear will give you is smaller increments between pinion changes. Any changes in acceleration or torque or top speed or whatever a different sized spur is supposed to give you (given the same gear ratio) are so minute that you'd have to be among the top 1% drivers in the company to notice or even make use of it. As for the LiPo position...my car is the same way...the battery will not fit under the bulkheads. I thought about spacing them up to fit the battery better but have been told the car actually handles better with the LiPo weighted tray. I can't argue with that as the car is handling very well now. Would I like it to fit like a LiPo friendly car? You bet I would...but the car is running great the way it is so until I can better afford a newer car there's no reason for me to switch.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 09:24 PM   #68
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C'mon Ankle Buster, just do like I did. Buy all the cheapest stuff you can find and come race! Racing is always better than shopping. Of course, you can definitely come watch me get my a$$ handed to me on Sunday for being a cheapskate. But still, racing is always better than shopping.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 09:28 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
I gotta make things complicated. I can't just go shopping, show up at the track and then figure things out. Not this time. That doesn't work for me. For example...

I recently found out that some people are having issues with Novak BL motors and Tekin ESCs. Something about the motor timing being "different" from other BL motors and so you have to factor that into your total timing. Some guys also claim to be cogging - whatever that means. So that combination may not be a good idea. Some people say it's all good. Some people have issues. What's the real story?
Don't know what novaks they are talking about, but the new ballistic motors work fine out here. If you are worried, just stick to duo2 or the redline.


Quote:
And then, what is the difference in performance between the pre-mounted SJ-R 36R's and the Speedmind 36'R other than one is dish and the other one is spokes? I know that the dish doesn't flex as much as the spokes, but what is better on asphalt? I also seen these 62.5x30mm rubber tires and wonder how those would work.
Honestly I can't tell the difference between the speedmind and SJ-R premounts because both the rims are made of a softer material. I did notice on the Muchmore rims have better response because the material is much harder. But, they crack easier because of that. If you think you'll be hitting things, go with the SJ-Rs. BC has the best deal in town for those and almost everyone runs them.

Quote:
Is a 116 spur gear the right size gear to use with a 17.5 motor? I don't know. Somebody was saying it's a better combination for more low end punch, but didn't say what motor that was for.
The size will differ with what speedo you get. I had to run a 3.5FDR with my KO brushless speedo, to keep up with V200. It was game over after 203 though. But the RS only needs like 6-7.0 FDR. For that reason, it'll be better for you to get stuff that people already run. They already did the hard part for you lol.

Quote:
How does tightening or loosing a diff affect corner entry, mid and exit? I know I copy/pasted something into my notes, but I haven't committed it to memory yet so I don't know.
Just make a smooth diff that won't slip easily. I'm serious. For asphalt, a looser diff is much easier to drive imo. The tighter it is, the closer it is to a drift car. I don't think you want that.

Quote:
Am I going to put the LiPo battery further out from the center to balance the car or am I going to shave the bottom of the battery case, put a notch by the rear bulkhead and squeeze it under the top deck? '007 is not LiPo friendly. And if I do put the battery further out, am I going to use a weighted LiPo tray or use individual weights in the battery slots and use something else to extend out the battery? At present, I'm leaning towards individual weights to allow more flex.
Can't help you about that. But I'm sure someone made a tray to offset the batt. You could be like me and use some servo tape and strapping tape to secure the batt offset hahaha.

Quote:
I have to think about what springs to buy. XRAY springs are not cheap and when it comes down to it, you don't need the whole lower weight spring set for rubber tires. I have to look at some setup sheets.
I use HPI pro4 springs exclusively. A little big on my spring retainer, but it holds. another good set are the Atsushi Hara matched springs which I use for my TB-03 simply because I don't have more pro4 ones.

Quote:
The car I bought didn't come with any extra parts at all. Only the car and what's on it. I have no idea what degree hubs are on the car, I don't know how the roll center pins are positioned and I have no shims to adjust the setup - so I have to figure out what I need.
I'm sure the parts are identifiable with some kind of numbers/letters especially from xray. If you haven't already, read this:

http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/sho...p?file_id=2525

It pretty much tells you everything you need about setups. I read through the entire book myself.

Everyone is a noob at some point. The important thing to remember is that you are doing this for fun and not for torture. I sometimes get disappointed with my results, but that's life. Hope this helps, and things should come into place once you get that car rolling on the track. Like Bruce Lee said, "Don't think, Feel. It's like a finger pointing a way to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly Glory"
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Unread 02-18-2010, 10:03 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
I recently found out that some people are having issues with Novak BL motors and Tekin ESCs. Something about the motor timing being "different" from other BL motors and so you have to factor that into your total timing. Some guys also claim to be cogging - whatever that means. So that combination may not be a good idea. Some people say it's all good. Some people have issues. What's the real story?
Get the Tekin RS(Pro) and find a new Duo or Duo 2 based motor(Trinity, Fantom, Express...). 13.5 or 17.5, your choice. There, done, all pau!


Quote:
And then, what is the difference in performance between the pre-mounted SJ-R 36R's and the Speedmind 36'R other than one is dish and the other one is spokes? I know that the dish doesn't flex as much as the spokes, but what is better on asphalt? I also seen these 62.5x30mm rubber tires and wonder how those would work.
Get the 36R. I like the spokes because they are better in the...............................looks department lol. Kidding asisde, I would rather not have the wheels flex at all. My thinking is that the flex would add an "un-natural" or inconsistant feeling in the handling. I have the same opinion of chassis flex. Just work on your setup.


Quote:
Is a 116 spur gear the right size gear to use with a 17.5 motor? I don't know. Somebody was saying it's a better combination for more low end punch, but didn't say what motor that was for.
Just get you FDR (final drive ratio) close to what every one else here is running(with the Tekin RS V203) and drop or add a tooth or two to get the feeling and motor temp right. After looking around, for 17.5, an FDR of 5.8 to 6.0 looks like a great place to start. The Internal ratio of the T3 is I think 1.9 so with your 116 spur you would need a 37T pinion to get 6.0. Then just get four or six pinions one either side of that 37T(For Example).[/QUOTE]


Quote:
How does tightening or loosing a diff affect corner entry, mid and exit? I know I copy/pasted something into my notes, but I haven't committed it to memory yet so I don't know.
It's all in testing/practice. Generally, the rear diff is usually set according to the kit setup, and the front is set to your liking unless you just run a spool like almost everyone else. After that i's all setup.


Quote:
Am I going to put the LiPo battery further out from the center to balance the car or am I going to shave the bottom of the battery case, put a notch by the rear bulkhead and squeeze it under the top deck? '007 is not LiPo friendly. And if I do put the battery further out, am I going to use a weighted LiPo tray or use individual weights in the battery slots and use something else to extend out the battery? At present, I'm leaning towards individual weights to allow more flex.
Sell the 007 and get a lipo ready T3. No fussing! Probably gonna spend around $100 just to get the 007 lipo ready anyway.


Quote:
I have to think about what springs to buy. XRAY springs are not cheap and when it comes down to it, you don't need the whole lower weight spring set for rubber tires. I have to look at some setup sheets.
Check the setups for a med. size asphalt track.

Quote:
The car I bought didn't come with any extra parts at all. Only the car and what's on it. I have no idea what degree hubs are on the car, I don't know how the roll center pins are positioned and I have no shims to adjust the setup - so I have to figure out what I need.
Start fresh with the T3.


Quote:
So these are the types of things I'm contemplating.

Maybe this stuff is easy for you and you know the answers to all these questions, but I'm still stupid when it comes to this stuff. As much as possible, I want to understanding what I'm doing so when someone gives me some advice, I have a clue as to what they are talking about and not just blindly doing something because somebody said so.

OK!

Here's DA RIG i'm recommending.........

XRAY T3
Tekin RS
Thunder Power/Fantom/IP/Protek/SMC 40C-50C Lipo
Any Duo or Duo2 based sensored brushless motor
Any Sorex 36R tires. 40R for summer
Protoform LTC-R, Speed-6, DNA2, Mazda 6 bodies.
Any good short TC steering servo

BTW, IF I was in the market for a new TC, I would get the Lipo ready from day one Losi JRXS Type-R hehehe. BUT, if I were in the market for a NEW TC, I would get the Photon. My budget wouldnt allow for a Xray or Tamiya.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 10:17 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
I gotta make things complicated. I can't just go shopping, show up at the track and then figure things out. Not this time. That doesn't work for me.

It doesn't have to be that complicated. Shop with the help of recommendations from the local racers. That's the best way to do it IMO.

And i'm not sorry to say this...... you basically have to show up at the track and figure SOME if not MOST things out. That's how you learn. But of course you will not be alone as we will be more than happy to help you figure things out.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 10:41 PM   #72
goots
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All us racers here still are learning. You can know all the information of setups and electronics in th world, but what good can it do if you can't apply to actual practice time. I come out every off week to the tracks and start playing with my setup. Just to see what each hole/angle etc. does in the car. When I race tho, I do have a particular setup I use untill I find a better one on the by weeks.

Come out, race! and then see from there what you need and know what to work on. IMO your thinking to much. Flex in wheels? never thot about that untill you brought it up. And yet I find the topic so miniscule. Everyone is ready to offer help and info. We are not all pro's but, our goal is to have fun and do better the next race. Like P2 said, "Its just toys!"

Last edited by goots; 02-18-2010 at 10:43 PM.
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Unread 02-18-2010, 11:43 PM   #73
hashiriya
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Pushing the battery outboard from the chassis center to fit a lipo is no real problem. I tried that out on my 416 and moving the battery a few millimeters makes no noticeable difference. For a noticeable effect, you'll have to push the lipo far out which makes the car roll slightly slower. Also, you are going to have to add ballast to make the 1420 gram weight limit.
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Unread 02-19-2010, 12:39 AM   #74
rmdhawaii
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First, I would to thank everyone for taking the time out to read my posts and answer my questions. I really do appreciate your suggestions and input. POOH, was right, you guys are a friendly and helpful group.

P2 is right as well. I do spend too much time bench racing and over analyzing things. Over analyzing things is what makes me successful at what I do professionally, but that has never carried over well into the R/C world. A lot of people don't understand why I go through so much trouble to understand every little detail about this ,that and whatever and at times people are downright annoyed by it - but it's what I do and my way of enjoying this hobby.

As a nitro mechanic, it took me a long time to figure things out, but eventually I did figure everything out. The one thing that has always plagued me is my sorry azz driving - and that is something I may never be able to fix. A few people that have seen me drive nitro tell me I'm really good at it at times, but most of the time, I'm incredibly inconsistent. Some of it has to do with the fact that I used to never get enough sleep before a race day and the fact that I would be running 3 cars on any given day. For most people running nitro, that would be overkill - and trying to balance family life on top of all of that started to complicate my life like you wouldn't believe. I always wished that we had a permanent nitro track, so that I could work on my driving and get in all the play time I wanted on non-race days , but that was just a dream. And now that I don't have a place to run the cars anymore, I'm just really pissed about the situation.

I was kind of reluctant to post here, only because I was worried that at some point we would get to where we are in this thread right now. In a way, I'm kind of sorry that I dragged you guys into my R/C world, as it is something that many people don't know how to deal with. I know that everyone wants to be and has been very helpful, but at the same time, people just get tired of my BS and tell me to stop bench racing and over analyzing things, and just go race the car. I just have a way of thinking about things and most people don't share that same mindset. Unfortunately, I can't help myself. That's just the way I'm wired up. So I think the best thing for everyone is that I just stop posting here.

See ya.

P.S. If you ever run 1/10th nitro sedan, my Web site has tons of over analysis and bench racing to help you to be successful. LOL - NitroKB: Nitro Knowledge Base Archive


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Unread 02-19-2010, 06:53 AM   #75
FREAKAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
So I think the best thing for everyone is that I just stop posting here. [/I]
Nope!, I wont accept that!

If you didn't already notice, all this blabbering on this RWH forum is actually...........BENCH RACING! And we(actually, more like ME) actually kinda sorta overanalyzed our responses to you questions and concerns, and I really don't mind at all and I actually like it.

Sooo....easy dea tigah! Nooo worries. Again, wer'e all here to help.


K, gotta go to work!
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ARRRRRR....RRR..RR......Choke R's
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